RC Slope Soaring in Hong Kong

阿麥，look at the rule

5.F.5. Number of Attempts: The competitor has one attempt on each flight. An attempt can be repeated if:

a) the launching attempt is impeded, hindered or aborted by circumstances beyond the control of the competitor, duly witnessed by the official judges;

其實個 rule 都有近人情的做法，如果出機明顯出錯的唔係機師的話，係可以重新出機！

在國際大賽，擲機手係自已隊員，大會為了減少爭坳，一般會當DNS處理。但本地賽事時，擲機手可能也是競爭的賽手，是敵是友，擲機失誤就好難追究，最好都係用近人情的做法，比機手重新出機！

阿麥你o個日係CD但Stanley擲翻邦邦隻機冇判DNF

"人情"應按何時何地何人而apply?

5.F.4. Definition of an Attempt: There is an attempt when the model has left the hands of the competitor or his helper.

5.F.5. Number of Attempts: The competitor has one attempt on each flight.
以上條文已注明只可出機一次

以下付注可能是 reflight 的理据:
An attempt can be repeated if:
a) the launching attempt is impeded, hindered or aborted by circumstances beyond the control of the competitor, duly witnessed by the official judges;但我對"circumstances beyond the control of the competitor"的理解是不可預料的情況, 例如"有機進入航道、下雨、base judge 未按掣"等
而出機時反機是機手可預料及有相應行動的
例如, "自已出機或找可信任的人做助手", 平時也應多練習安全的出機方法" (出機時的發力點,在 CG 之後，就是容易反机)

擲到翻轉就真係誇張

但擲機手擲得低擲錯方向，機師就賴擲機手失誤(亦有可能真係意外導至)，我怕會濫用。

我同意阿麥一刀切 DNF。

(Note: Once the model left the hand of the competitor or his helper, it is an official attemp. So I think it should be a DNF but not DNS.)

有咁嘅事 ！？唔記得
當時係咪我當席呀？
或係我驚比邦邦閙、而冇出紅牌呢？
如果係咁、就係失職啦！

以後唔好啦

個rule講
"the launching attempt"

好明顯係指出機，

"aborted by circumstances beyond the control of the competitor"
亦好明顯話唔關個機手事時

就可以重新出機！

當然寫rule個個人的意思，未必完全指出機失誤，但至少出機失誤係可以理解成個 rule 所包括的範圍。

所以我都認為在本地賽，在實際情況下用近人情的做法，但在國際賽，如TR2010時，賽手一定要組隊，擲機手是隊員，擲機出錯得DNF，自已隊負責！各位未組隊的飛友，快快組隊，記得搵D擲機穩陣的隊員啊！

法官姪女打人
我地香港連法庭都充滿人情

http://webb-site.com/articles/slapper.asp
The magistrate, Anthony Yuen Wai Ming, after admonishing her for the seriousness of the offences, reportedly said "but...the defendant has a good background, a well-off family...and most importantly, has caring and concerned parents". He also cited her academic achievements.

If you want total control, you better launch your model yourself.

Whenever you ask someone to lauch the model for you, it means you trust him. You have total control of who you choose to launch the your model, or, you can launch it by yourself.

I agree and understand that the rule says "competitor" but not "competitor and helper". However, my point is that choosing the helper is the total responsibility of the competitor, and it is what HE CAN CONTROL.

近人情的做法唔係問題，但最緊要係公平，唔關機手事時，判決個個要一樣：重新黎過！
如果只有阿邦可以黎過，其他人唔得，咁就錯羅！

Practically，在本地賽，擲機手是敵也是友，好難界定責任，最好都係一刀切，重新黎過！

唔明你係勿野意思

係一刀切，大賽及本地賽都 (DNF)
定係重新黎過！(reflight)

Hello Stanley,

No more about "是敵是友" la ! I believe no one will cheat in launching the other's model. We are in competition but we are friends too.

In fact I talked to Angus before about the term "competitor" in 5.F.5. 5.F.5 simply says "competitor" so if the fail launching is due to the helper then it falls in the case of "beyond the control of the competitor". Another attempt can be granted. But in Viking race, this will result in a DNF.

So the question is whether a helper's fail launching is simply beyond the control of the pilot (then he can restart), or we should see pilot and helper as a team so the pilot has the responsibilty to the fail launching . (As I said above, the pilot chooses the helper and he trusts the one he chose can give him a good launch. Otherwise he can choose to launch the model himself.)

Of course if the CD determines that the failure is due to external factors out of the control of the pilot and helper, the pilot can restart. There is no problem here.

在Viking賽，我曾經問過幾個國際級大師，對擲機手出錯，有冇得黎過的問題，他們說F3F rules無詳細解釋，他們在國內一般做法就如我所講的，如果出錯並非機手的話就可以重新黎過。Viking Race係國際大賽，而且指定有隊組，出機手是同組飛友，為免爭坳，就算係擲機手出錯，都當DNS，也算合理。

所以我都係建議跟大隊，在本地賽事沒有指明隊組的情況下，如果明顯唔係機師賽手出錯就可以黎過，但執法要統一公平，總之一刀切，個個一視同人，重新黎過！阿麥明唔明我講咩啊？

點先至係"明顯"呢！
如果冇反机、但係出機冇力、跌到亞媽都唔認得又點？

出機時出左事要去救、冇立刻撞地、但過一陣至救唔到、咁又點計？

咁機手自已出機、反機點計？

如果冇明確嘅標準，要個 CD 自已去判斷，
我做 CD 時＇同你做 CD 時嘅判斷都唔同啦
Stanley 做 CD時大把人情＇Ah Mak 做 CD 時人情可能會少啲！？
咁味又唔公平囉

嘅然我地安排降落，都要跟世界大賽嘅方式
點解出機又用唔同嘅方法呢！

我地E+正好是要面對呢個問題、把擲機嘅技術練好
同時都要幫助、改進其他機手嘅技術

平時多啲幫其他機友擲機、用全力去擲
多啲交朋友、咁人地幫你擲機時，咪會出力啲擲囉
唔通去到大賽至練擲機呀？

唉！大家玩左咁多年都係用近人情的做法，重新黎過，唔通係唔係明顯擲機手出錯，都有需要在這裡爭坳咩！出機後立即墮地，反轉失控，唔通都唔係擲機手出錯！
如果我們用個硬rule，個個都是DNF，最後好多人都會唔開心！出黎玩何必呢！況且重新黎過機手未必有gain，但比DNS，他就一定有失！

香港法例對有懷疑的証供，會將得益歸被告，都係唔希望會殺錯良民者。同一道理，比個機手重新黎過，對其他人無影向，點解要咁緊，唔關佢事都要殺底佢比個DNS呢！大諗諗，開心D啦！

唉！大家玩左咁多年都係用近人情的做法，重新黎過，唔通係唔係明顯擲機手出錯，都有需要在這裡爭坳咩！出機後立即墮地，反轉失控，唔通都唔係擲機手出錯！

--- 明顯係擲機手出錯，但現在是討論擲機手出錯是否DNF，不是討論何種狀態是擲機手出錯。
--- 咁多年都有人周圍降落，降落飛返賽道，30秒過左三催四請都唔見人，十分近人情，是否繼續?


如果我們用個硬rule，個個都是DNF，最後好多人都會唔開心！出黎玩何必呢！況且重新黎過機手未必有gain，但比DNS，他就一定有失！

--- 不見得硬rule會唔開心，但玩遊戲無明確規則一定會有爭拗。
--- Rule最重要清楚，寫得清清楚楚都犯就心甘命抵，咁都唔開心就返屋企打機啦
--- Individual pilot's gain or lose不應在規則設定考慮之列。


香港法例對有懷疑的証供，會將得益歸被告，都係唔希望會殺錯良民者。同一道理，比個機手重新黎過，對其他人無影向，點解要咁緊，唔關佢事都要殺底佢比個DNS呢！大諗諗，開心D啦！

--- 正反例子隨時找到幾十個，所以無參考價值。
--- 其實，找其他人幫忙Landing對其他人無影響，點解要咁緊，唔關其他人事都要殺底佢比個DNF呢

周圍降落，降落飛返賽道，30秒過左三催四請都唔見人 全部都係機手自已的錯，無人情講！但擲機手出錯，唔關機手事，比個DNF佢係好無孤，你地覺得係咪有少少唔同呢？除非係規定同組賽員擲機，出錯集體負責，否則就咁比個DNF就有商確餘地，賽例都有話唔關賽員事就可以黎過，點解一定要咁緊？



這個比DNF的遊戲規側只有隊員幫忙做擲機手時才行得通！現實係我地搞本地賽時無編隊，無集體負責制，
比一個例子，如果你現在比賽中成積排第一，你叫排第二位仁兄幫你出機，點知一出即死，你點知佢有心定無意！無端端得個DNF！以後你可能會自已出機，但大風時唔得嘛！一定要有人幫忙至得，這個人唔係你話要就有架。這裡引發出的問題更加含糊！
所以我贊成本地賽無組隊時，用近人情少少的做法，讓機手重新黎過。

全部都係 Friend黎,我會認為係無意囉
我情愿呢個case在平常比賽發生,好過在國際賽時發生
但係對一些"手捉CG後機身位置"嘅擲機手，我會做足推down嘅心理準備

平時多啲幫其他機友擲機、用全力去擲
多啲交朋友、咁人地幫你擲機時，咪會出力啲擲囉
唔通去到大賽至練擲機呀？

大家練好啲擲機好過啦
以下係我嘅一啲經驗同見解,歡迎指正
http://www.rcsail.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 3a4771988b

各位師父各有見解!但你比我選擇出機時發生失誤而引致不能完成賽事-會選擇判/被判:
1)Reflight
2)DNS
3)DNF
小弟傾向選擇判"3)DNF"比較合理...因大家在同一客觀條件下出錯都獲得同一判決,又不會引起爭拗!
(不論錯誤出在機手/擲機手身上,加上此情況不常發生... )
只要賽例列明,相信大家也會嚴陣以待吧!(除非個擲機手想整蠱你!!! )

Stanley,

I seldom agree with you, apart from this time.

DNS or DNF ?

Not a big deal, as the pilot would get zero anyway.

However,please see 5.F.7 of the rule, The model not yet enter the speed course is regarded as not yet start ( My interpretation only).



That is what I always do.



It is the PILOT's own error.

Just my 2 cents, and I may be wrong.

Me too